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Perinton/Fairport Canal Community Discussion / Re: When is a private drive not private?
« Last post by Doug K on November 30, 2023, 07:22:53 pm »
I know EXACTLY what NYS Easement Laws say about that type of "perpetual easement"

And specifically DRIVEWAY Easements are covered in this informative website.

There are ways to end an easement, and with the New York State Canal Corporation's recent decision to remove the Oxbow Trail from their "Adopt-a-Trail" program, it would depend on what THEIR plans are for that particular piece of property.

Not sure if the Oxbow property were to change hands, and is NO LONGER under NYS Canal control, whether that move would mean that the "perpetual" term would transfer, it might actually end, depending on who the new owners were.

The webpage below has a section on how to end Easements in NY, but it's very difficult.

Remember the MAIN issue here is simple, the NYS Canal Corporation property, known locally as The Oxbow (or Caswell's Corner) is a LAND LOCKED property, that's the reason for the Right of Way Easement in the first place.

Unless there are other methods to gain access to the property, those that might offer a less obtrusive easement burden to Mr Kim, there is no reason to end this right of way.

The reason for the original Easement hasn't changed, so it is STILL required for the NYS Canal to maintain their property to Perinton & Fairport standards.

And I'm not sure that " the general public" would agree to end the Egress & Ingress Easement.

Perinton/Fairport Canal Community Discussion / ECCO What is that?
« Last post by Michael Caswell on November 25, 2023, 07:31:19 am »'s-quite-at-the-stcc-forum/?message=2506

Here are the points I felt needed addressing in Perinton's ECCO. Shouldn't that be ECCCO?  Erie Canal Conservation Corridor Overlay (ECCO). Heck! They can't even get that right.

Firstly, let's discuss what the Town of Perinton is feebly attempting to do. It plainly states their intent in their naming of their project.  OVERLAY.

The NYPA have spent millions of dollars designing a perfectly good system to address the canals future, and these folks want to plonk this nonsense on top of it, as an 'overlay'?  It's a feeble attempt to garner votes perhaps?

Preserve woodlands, wetlands, and other green space.

Exactly what does that mean? Keep it just the way it is? Despite all the experts telling them the trees and veggies have to go because the embankments have become unsafe?

Use vegetation and green infrastructure to help reduce the velocity and volume of storm water runoff entering the Erie Canal.

Is this an excuse to keep all these weeds on the dams, because the storm water would have already left the dam slopes?  Trying to keep tree removal to 1/3 of the current amount over 6".

Of course the question is where did that rule come from, regarding earthen dams, and what purpose does it serve to leave a tree for what might only be 3-5 more years before it will qualify for removal @ 6"? And how is one supposed to mow, inspect and get fast access with large machinery, when these larger trees are in the way?

There's no logic or reasoning applied, so this will fail, like the last one. Any tree left is an issue, for public safety reasons.

Encourage land uses that take advantage of the Town’s location on the canal to provide amenities for residents and visitors in a manner that complements, not competes with or detracts from, the canal’s aesthetic, environmental, economic, and cultural value.

Pure waffle

Removal of Vegetation
No property owner shall be permitted to remove existing vegetation within 50 feet of canal high-water mark or more than 33 percent of trees with minimum six-inch caliper.

Not sure what they are getting at here. Lets say NYPA decide to remove stuff from their canal property. So they have to ask permission from Perinton? JOKING EH?

Tree Inventory is required for all site plan applications

It's all about the trees. This entire document.

NYS Canal Corporation Earthen Embankment Integrity Program (EEIP)
• Where removal of vegetation is proposed as part of a NYS Canal Corporation or NYS Power Authority project, it is expected that Perinton will be informed and consulted in accordance with the EEIP. As part of this process, Perinton will hold at least one public hearing to inform the community of the project and allow for public comment.

Public hearings have already been done and the input from the public noted.

Legislative intent
To implement the vision, goals, and recommendations of the Comprehensive Plan and other local plans and studies focused on the protection of the natural and cultural resources, including mature trees and vegetation, historic landmarks, recreational opportunities, public access points, trails, and scenic views along the Erie Canal.

Mature trees and vegetation. That is all this waffle is about. This ECCO is full of vagueries Totally unenforceable, in my opinion.

Sadly the FACTS are simple about Tree Roots...

Tree Roots do NOT "stabilize soil" as Mr. Roshia would have everyone believe. In fact they really don't do a very good job stabilizing trees, as under certain conditions the roots "let go" of their grip and the tree topples over.

This tree fell over near Montezuma, into a part of the Canal that is under the jurisdiction of the EEIP Program being run by the New York State Canal Corporation. It has yet to be cleared as it is only partially blocking the channel. Luckily it was NOT on a raised earthen embankment section.

But trees are NOT the only issue causing headaches for the owners & caretakers of the NYS Canal System.

In fact the REAL issue with Earthen Embankments in PERINTON is the fact that under certain conditions the entire embankment can become "over-saturated" and result in something known as "Static Liquefaction" which causes the earth to become a liquid almost instantly and results in a catastrophic dam failure. This phenomenon occurs more often where the soils used to create the earthen water impoundment are primarily sand or a sandy-loam mixture.

It is EXACTLY what caused the Edenville Dam to Breach a few years back in Michigan. Over 2500 structures were lost, and thankfully NO LIVES!

With 11 miles of earthen embankments in Perinton, all built on a sandy foundation, it's hard to believe that any Erie Canal Breach wouldn't be significantly worse in Perinton. The Edenville & Sandford Dams were only about 18-20 feet tall. There are 60-75 feet tall earthen embankments running through Perinton & Pittsford, one of these embankments even has the term "great" in it's description.

But folks, it's even harder to believe that the Perinton Town Supervisor, Mr Hanna, is STILL actively trying to ignore the public safety issues along the Erie Canal, in his own community. And he is also actively trying to create a new program in Perinton to support MORE trees growing on earthen embankments that are deemed unsafe by New York State. You can read about this using the link below, and the ECNA will be discussing this idea in the near future.

Not once does Mr. Hanna mention the well documented public safety issues cited in his own community along the Erie Canal.

Remember this little FACT: Any Earthen Embankment along the Erie Canal that fails.. will ALWAYS result in a FLOOD... and lots of FINGERPOINTING as well.

And another little FACT: The biggest threat to Erie Canal Sustainability & Safety is those in our community who DENY there is a problem in the first place...
Response to Facebook Group Opposition / Re: All's quiet at the STCC forum.
« Last post by Michael Caswell on November 21, 2023, 08:24:34 pm »
More buzz!   Wow! It's hopping over there at the STCC. All the 'experts' are out tonight. (I thought we were over Halloween!)

Here's the latest  -

Jenny Liedkie  - she said  "Removed the plants that USED the water that was there.
Now that water has no 'users'.... and causes erosion". We all learned this long ago

WOW!  Please tell me that she wasn't educated in Fairport schools. It's a tough enough pill to swallow when I get my school taxes!

Actually, she might have a point. The dams are leaking so badly, and those Cottonwoods are sucking up water like a camel at an oasis. They're are 150 feet tall now, so they've been doing  great job. I jest of course! Because 150 feet tall Cottonwoods on an earthen embankment dam are a nightmare waiting to happen.

It only needs one tree to get blown over and a hole could appear, letting billions of gallons of water loose on those folks on Jefferson and Marsh road areas. Death, drowning, destroyed properties, millions of dollars at stake, and a nightmare for those opposing the NYPA's efforts politically.

Yes, town supervisors, opposing the clearing of these old and dangerous dams is going to cost you.


Response to Facebook Group Opposition / Re: All's quiet at the STCC forum.
« Last post by Michael Caswell on November 21, 2023, 06:24:06 pm »
Doug spotted this in an STCC rant  -

On Facebook from Steve Roshia Jr. :
If only roots held soil in place, oh wait......

Here's what Steve doesn't get. He read something about roots stabilizing the banks.  Trouble is he was careless, and or, simply did not understand the difference between a wooded slope, and an earthen embankment dam.

So, I'll bring up an expert witness called in by none other than Elizabeth Agte, the STCC and several Town Supervisors.

This article explains the difference between a 'wooded slope' ( having no impounded water back pressure, unlike a dam) and a dam.
Trees hold slopes together Steve, but they are not allowed on a dam.

Their expert witness Donald Grey says "I don’t know of any earth dams where woody vegetation was purposely planted or allowed to grow on a face of the dam." 
There's been a flurry of activity on the STCC forum for the past few days. All brought about by The Town of Perinton's post about how they are going to conduct themselves regarding the impending EEIP work about to grace the embankments in their little part of the canal. More about THAT in a soon to be published post.

But for now, here is what 'Eerie Agte' has just posted.

Elizabeth R. Agte
Ellen Smith There have always been leaks. It’s an earthen embankment after all. Go to the car tunnel under the canal in Medina it leaks all the time. A leak is not synonymous with an embankment failure.

Can anyone spot the stupidity of this comment? No? The tunnel is made of stone blocks, in effect, making the 'tunnel' she refers to as a section of an aqueduct.

See .

This one is 2000 years old and still functioning. It is held together by Keystones and clever engineering. Yes, the water seeps through the joints of the stones, but there is no way this entity can collapse because of them.

Note here: Lizzy still can't bring herself to say the words 'earthen embankment DAM'

Then we have this comment from Steve Roshia Jr: If only roots held soil in place, oh wait......

Um? I'm waiting Steve. I do hope you're not going to say the roots are holding an earthen embankment DAM in place. Because if you are, I'm going have to say you're an idiot, and I'd hate to have to do that!

The whole point here is that these dams are easily washed away by leaks that can develop into raging torrents in a matter of hours if they are not monitored and dealt with. The NYPA can't do that with all this crap on the face of these dams.
RULE # 1 for Dam Maintenance - written by these agencies: NYPA, NYSCC, NYDEC, FEMA, ASDSO & Army Corps of ENGINEERS =


News Flash:

Dateline November 20, 2023 - Rochester Facebook Group Continues to Ignore Public Safety Issues with Erie Canal

Once again, the NYS Canal Corporation is "crystal clear" about Erie Canal Embankment Seepage Issues and the Meta Group called Stop the Canal Clear-cut continues to whine & complain about that very issue. One member posted a news blip that showed up locally, but unfortunately the entire group seems unwilling to read the article, or accept what that safety message says.

The group, and most of it's members, still to this day are unwilling to acknowledge or discuss the Public Safety concerns brought up by the New York State Canal Corporation. That is sad, and also dangerous for any of the 100s of Canal Neighbors lining the miles and miles of unsafe, aging earthen embankments throughout NY State.

You would think in light of a large repair like that in Royalton, the group would start to catch on, but you know what they say about "stupid"... it can't be fixed.

We will post that NEWS article here, so everyone can see the inherent BIAS this group has for acknowledging the continuing issue with Erie Canal Safety. Read the statement below that followed the Orleans Hub Story in quotes

The Canal Corporation’s EEIP is a comprehensive and programmatic approach to restore, maintain, and manage earthen embankments. An earthen embankment is an engineered structure or dam wall of the canal, which is made from soil, rock, clay, and other “earthen material,” holding water for a prolonged period above the adjacent land surface elevation. Earthen embankments comprise about 130 miles of the 524-mile Canal system and are located across the state.

Embankment failures could have significant consequences for the communities nearby and areas downstream, which include loss of life, property damage, damage to essential infrastructure, and the loss of benefits such as hydroelectric generation, navigation, and water supply.

In recent years, water levels in a few areas of the canal, including this stretch in Royalton, have been reduced due to concerns about embankment integrity. While reduced depths are an effective way to mitigate embankment seeps, the adjustments can also limit the amount of water available for agriculture and fishing, complicate inspections for officials, and present safety concerns for boaters.

General ECNA Discussion & Information / Re: An Oxbow Sunset
« Last post by Doug K on November 17, 2023, 06:41:19 am »
And imagine that SAME view of the sunset in Perinton when Oxbow Lake is filled with water, and recreational boaters & kayakers come from miles around to be amazed by the views & scenic beauty. And ALL that invasive vegetation growing on the Oxbow Dam is long gone, removed to make the Erie Canal safe & sustainable.

It's a breathtaking image now, and an even better view of Perinton to come very soon.
General ECNA Discussion & Information / An Oxbow Sunset
« Last post by Michael Caswell on November 17, 2023, 04:01:11 am »

Imagine this view without all these junk trees!
Mike, hasn't that been the BEST part of the NYS Canal Corporation's efforts to IMPROVE Earthen Embankment Integrity along the NYS Canal System...the humor?

Tell me, is it the humor & chuckles watching this Facebook group try to ignore the "elephant in the room" called Public Safety, and also try to defend their position to simply ignore the data & recommendations from experts in Dam Safety & Maintenance, and follow the "musings" of a Beekeeper named Agte? Still to this day there has not been one word about the safety aspects of the whole Canal Embankment Integrity from this STCC group, just ignorant denial.

Or is it the humor & astonishment watching the New York State Canal Corporation fumble with something as easy as gaining public support for a public safety effort like improving Erie Canal Integrity & Safety? They seem to have still "missed the boat" on that one, as this social media group is still the number one threat to Canal safety in Western New York.

Or perhaps it's the humor watching the New York Power Authority wrestle with trying to appease this Stop the Clear-cut group, while trying to keep Erie Canal Neighbors safe, and at the same time working to change the image of the Erie Canal as a huge taxpayer-funded "money pit"? Have to wonder how much this Royalton Canal Integrity Issue has cost, especially with this new cut-off wall project that will use a Bentonite/Soil Slurry to build a HALF MILE LONG water barrier wall that could be as much as 60 feet deep.

One thing may be for certain here, speaking of humor... the NYS Canal & Power Authority is probably not laughing this one off.

The cost of delayed Embankment Dam Maintenance is now getting fairly expensive for NYPA, this type of EEIP repair was outlined in the SEQR Report for the program, and had a cost of $3.5M-$7M dollars per mile.

The repair for this single embankment section in Royalton, using this Slurry/Bentonite Cut-Off Wall, may cost as much as $3,500,000. The cost of public safety for those living in and around the Erie Canal in Gaines NY just went up substantially. This single repair should be a wake up call for those communities, alarm bells ringing, time to pay heed to the message of public safety by those who operate the Erie Canal system.

Sadly though, all of this is happening while a small Facebook group in Fairport is still promoting that "nothing is wrong" with the Erie Canal, no safety concerns, it's all "fear-mongering". Ms. Agte and her group must believe somehow, that NYS just spent $3.5 MILLION DOLLARS, to perpetuate the "myth" of Canal Integrity issues?

How absurd is that folks?

About as absurd as "warm fish" needing shady Erie Canal water perhaps?

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