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Indeed, roots do stabilize banks, he's absolutely correct!

Levees, river banks, wooded forest slopes, canal embankments even.

But let's not forget, NONE of these situations are impounding millions of gallons of water, and none are subject to seepage and a phreatic line forming in the embankment. Hydrostatic pressure causes dams to leak and collapse, causing massive flooding.
An earthen dam is completely different and can have dire consequences if it is not correctly maintained.

No Trees on a Dam. It's simply dangerous.
Opposition to the Stop The Canal Clearcut Movement / Re: Maier needs a lesson
« Last post by Doug K on September 24, 2021, 04:46:35 pm »
The group seems quite upset by what amounts to "approved maintenance" for Canal property. So now do they think they can critique regular mowing and brush cutting?

In each case shown on their Facebook Page, the "vegetation management" meets the SEQR requirements set by the State, the "invasive vegetation" removal will allow for a thorough, proper inspection afterwards, and NO "community threshold" was met. No need to engage the public for their valued opinions. That's what the EEIP Guide says.

And that is if these locations being cleared and shown on Facebook were actually earthen canal embankments. Because this clearing doesn't appear to be part of EEIP

There seems to be no evidence to support that these are canal embankments, since no images of the Maintenance Trimming have any water showing in them...

I think the reason for the uproar is simple, with a group called Stop The Canal Clear-cut...

They just realized they haven't stopped anything...

Opposition to the Stop The Canal Clearcut Movement / Maier needs a lesson
« Last post by Michael Caswell on September 24, 2021, 03:54:56 pm »

Maier seems to think what is growing on the canal embankments is "Natural Vegetation' like it's supposed to be there - naturally, I guess.

They're WEEDS  --  WEEDS!
As defined by NYDEC   please study this ----

Most of them are actually illegal to grow in New York State. Natural Vegetation eh!  Oh! Of course these steep slopes are now called "PARKS" All this new vocabulary, I'm having a job to keep up!

Is this yet another lie from Ms Agte? Because the Canal Corp does know exactly what the condition of the embankment is. they have the Rizzo report  --

One only has to walk along the trail for five minutes south of the Fairport bowling alley and take a look at the embankment, that is if you can squeeze through the brush and weeds.

It must be pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain that the embankment is in a deplorable condition.

Oh!  But wait!  I showed it to Samra Brouk's minions and they obviously didn't seem to think there was a problem. I guess you can't fix stupid eh!

But I learned a lesson here.
If you're not a dam engineer, you won't see the problems! So why are all these people making fools of themselves passing judgement on things they know nothing about?
Opposition to the Stop The Canal Clearcut Movement / Re: I think I have STCC Bingo
« Last post by Doug K on September 23, 2021, 03:50:34 pm »
Mike, it's just another term, in a long string of descriptors, that this group uses interchangeably. They seem to change up what they call these earthen embankments, based on what they think will distract from the real truth, most effectively, at the given moment.

On a happy note, I have B-I-N-G-O now.

So far this week, only 4 days old, I've seen this Facebook group call these Canal Embankment Dams 5 different things:

Members of this FB group have used Riverbank (again), Levee (again), Canal Banks (again), a "garden" (new term), and the catch all, Earthen Embankment. I also might have seen hillside, slope  and berm.

Now it's a new "mashup" of a few old names in this new one you mentioned, a Levee Embankment.

But the real name, used by most with a knowledge of what these structures do, and how they were made, is either an Earthen Dam or Embankment Dam.

I still prefer the descriptive term though, water impounding structure. Because it really does matters what's on the "other side" of the earth that the invasive vegetation is growing on. And if that happens to be WATER on the other side of those "trees" (the majority of time) then it is called a DAM, plain & simple.

And these members do know that trees are NOT allowed on Dams, only turf grass is approved to cover them, for protection of the DAM and the PUBLIC below.

What's next? Maybe a new thing, called a "leveeberm"
Virginia Borden Maier
Brad Allen Thank you so much 🙂 Just a few small clarifications. I do teach biology at a local college, but I don't have my doctorate. And I think it is probably fairer to say that there is "not agreement" among the scientists/engineers at the Army Corps about the guidance, but that essentially all of the research they have performed does not support the approach of removing established vegetation from stable levee embankments, and in fact that this action can increase risk. And Congress has asked them to rewrite the guidance to minimize the environmental impact, but they have not done that yet due to lack of funding.

She knows full well the difference between a LEVEE and an EMBANKMENT DAM. Their (debunked testimony) expert Dr Donald Gray, explained the difference. It looks like, once again, she conveniently mis-informed Gray so he thought he was discussing Slopes on Levees. see

And here we are again, using the same tricks. Disgraceful!
General ECNA Discussion / Re: Yet another tree down into the navigation channel.
« Last post by Doug K on September 23, 2021, 02:27:35 pm »
For those who can't quite understand the whole issue with invasive vegetation, namely trees, along the Erie Canal and NYS Empire Trail. They are a danger to Embankment Integrity, they fall onto the Empire Trail, and they topple into the waterway, prompting a Notice to Mariners as a Channel Obstruction issue.

Here's the list of "tree issues" from the 2021 Navigation Season

Notice to Mariners - Erie Canal – Lockport - May 7, 2021
Mariners are advised of fallen debris east of the Robinson Road Bridge (E-237) over the Erie Canal in Lockport that is encroaching on the north side of the navigation channel. The debris has been marked off by two danger buoys and one red auxiliary buoy.

Notice to Mariners - Erie Canal - Perinton - June 17, 2021
Mariners are advised of a fallen tree approximately 200 yards west of the Lyndon Road Bridge (E-124)  over the Erie Canal in Perinton, that is partially obstructing the south side of the navigation channel and marked with buoys. When transiting this area boaters should use the north side of the navigation channel. Crews have been notified.

Notice to Mariners - Erie Canal - Perinton - June 21, 2021
Mariners are advised that the fallen tree west of the Lyndon Road Bridge (E-124) over the Erie Canal in Perinton, has been cleared.

Notice to Mariners - Erie Canal – Lysander - July 30, 2021
Mariners are advised of a reported tree in the Seneca River just south of the Belgium Bridge (E-72) NY Rt.31 over the Erie Canal in Lysander. The tree is on the west side of the navigation channel in the vicinity of Buoy R "240". Boaters should use caution when transiting this area. Crews have been notified.

Notice to Mariners - Erie Canal – Sylvan Beach - September 23,2021
Mariners are advised of a submerged tree stump that is in the navigation channel near Buoy G "677", east of the Cove Rd. Bridge E-61 over the Erie Canal, in Sylvan Beach. Boaters should use caution when transiting this area. Maintenance crews have been notified.

Of course this Facebook group fighting against the public safety work, have stated a few times, that Embankment Clearing shouldn't become a "political issue" but NOW has members writing to Supervisor Hanna, threatening him with losing their votes, if he doesn't side with the two nearby Towns & Villages who support keeping their communities in danger from unsafe dams.

Bravo, Mr. Brad Allen, way to show that safety of Canal Neighbors in your community should take a backseat to how you might chose to vote next election

A long time coming, and a welcome change to what other Towns & Village leaders in eastern Monroe County have been saying about safety work along the Canal system

Supervisor Hanna has made an impressive statement to encourage the Perinton Community to accept and welcome the new Canal Corporation Embankment Integrity Program. The ECNA has had a few discussions with Mr. Hanna in the past, and welcome his move to work with the Canal Corporation, and the ECNA, to create an environment that supports acceptance of the need to "Inspect & Repair" the many Canal Embankments in Perinton and beyond.

Go read the statement on the Perinton Town web page, but the key takeaway is in bullet item number 2...

>>> "It is clear that maintenance along the earthen embankments of the Erie Canal has been lacking, which has resulted in areas of high hazard and poor condition. This, combined with the State’s diminished ability to perform inspections due to overgrowth, has created a public safety issue."

In addition Mr. Hanna has also touched on this key truth about Federal guidelines to insure Earthen Embankment Integrity, and public safety:

>>> "While FEMA and the Army Corp of Engineers guidance states that zero trees should exist on earthen embankments, the Canal Corporation is trying to strike a balance between public safety and our desire to preserve the aesthetic value of the Canal. I believe it is in this compromise that we can all move forward."

This new EEIP statement aligns with the earlier one released by Supervisor Hanna in August.

Hopefully Mr. Hanna has put in his request, or better stated, his offer... to have the Oxbox Lake Dam in Perinton become the first earthen embankment revitalized by the new EEIP effort. There are already 370 signatures collected, on two different online petitions, asking for this particular earthen embankment to be cleared.

Please show your support, sign a petition today... thank you in advance.

Opposition to the Stop The Canal Clearcut Movement / Re: This says it all
« Last post by Michael Caswell on September 23, 2021, 06:14:35 am »
Once again, this group has ideas to actually change the name of the canal structures, as if that would make the problems go away.
"It's not a DAM!" they bleat, so if we call it a park, or an entertainment area, or a levee even, then it won't be a problem any more.

The only reason for this is so it won't fall under the strict rules that every authority like FEMA, USACE & ASDSO have for dealing with DAMS.

How convenient that would be!

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