Author Topic: It's called Deflection!  (Read 91 times)

Michael Caswell

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It's called Deflection!
« on: August 21, 2021, 09:15:38 am »
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/rochester/news/2021/08/20/residents-concerned-as-canal-corporation-looks-to-continue-maintenance-along-erie-canal?cid=share_fb#

So Ms Agte said "We need to find a way to make it safe but beautiful. Not just safe or beautiful."

What is so obvious here is that, after FOUR YEARS of wiggling, Ms Agte has not come up with ANY solution to make these dangerous dams safe with these trees left in place.

She also said There are years and years of maintenance that needs to be done, but why not do that maintenance first and then talk about whether or not the trees are creating a problem?”
 
This shows a total lack of understanding of the problems.  If there was a leak, how can the machinery get in to deal with it? The Rizzo Engineering Co said they couldn't conduct proper inspections with all this brush and trees. They gave the dam a Class C High hazard rating 4 years ago, and recommended immediate emergency action to remove trees etc.


« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 10:12:39 am by Doug K »

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Doug K

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Re: "We need to find a way!"
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2021, 10:34:14 am »
This is a good opportunity to view this problem of unsafe canal embankments from the perspective of the Property Owner, the New York Canal Corporation.

They have said this about their Erie Canal Earthen Embankment Integrity Issues:

For a total of approximately 125 miles of its 524-mile length, the Canal runs through built earthen embankments. These embankment structures exist at many non-continuous points along the Canal, but the concentration of high hazard large embankments is located between Lockport in Niagara County and Lyons in Wayne County (shorter stretches of high hazard embankments are found elsewhere). “High hazard” means that failure would likely result in, among other things, loss of life or widespread economic impact.

And they have created a PROGRAM to correct the Public Safety problem that most call the Erie Canal:

The New York State Canal Corporation is developing an embankment inspection and maintenance guidebook that will set forth protocols for safety, inspection, maintenance, community outreach and related environmental concerns, including a procedural approach as to where trees will be removed. While there will be a presumption that all trees and other unsuitable vegetation will be cleared to protect people and property, the guidebook will also recognize opportunities to consider alternatives to tree clearing in areas used for recreation, parks, municipal, residential and commercial areas.

Sadly Ms. Agte, Ms Maier, and their band of "crusaders" simply won't accept the "findings" of the Environmental Study they asked the Canal Corporation to perform which are listed below:

Proper maintenance of the embankments is imperative to maintain integrity of the structures: for minimizing risks of embankment failures to people that live, work or recreate along the NYS Canal System; for minimizing the risks to property and the environment; and for maintaining the integrity of the NYS Canal System in a cost-effective manner. Proper maintenance of the embankments willprevent interruptions of the usage of the NYS Canal System by boaters and towpath users.

Parts of the embankments have become overgrown with trees, brush and unwanted vegetation, are subject to animal burrowing, and are experiencing erosion, seepage, or settlement. Concrete and masonry surfaces that follow the embankment lines and grades also suffer from various types of deterioration. These conditions compromise the integrity of the embankments and hinder safety inspections, which impede the safe operation of the NYS Canal System and can cause embankment failures. Together they represent significant public safety, environmental and economic risks that must be properly managed.

To address this pressing need, the NYSCC will implement a comprehensive, system-wide embankment maintenance program (hereafter referred to as the Earthen Embankment Integrity Program, or EEIP) to restore, maintain and manage the integrity of embankments within the NYS Canal system, and has developed the NYSCC Inspection & Maintenance Guide Book (Guide Book) to carry out the program

And so now we have to watch the same group, do the same protest, about the same thing that they didn't like, 3 years ago.

And people in Monroe County and surrounding areas have to decide again if they want to listen to the owners of the NYS Canal System, who have provided evidence and science to support their case, or a group on Facebook called Stop the Canal Clear-cut, who has not provided anything but opinions and fractured ideas.

NYS residents can chose the NYS Canal Corporation's proposal of making necessary repairs to improve overall canal system public safety and sustainability.

Or they can chose the idea of this Facebook group that says "shade and public scenery" are more important that public safety and canal integrity.

Because if there "really was" a solution that could maintain public safety and keep the invasive woody vegetation on canal embankments, the Canal Corporation would GLADLY put that into practice, if only to make this group go away and stifle more lies and mis-information from it's co-founders.

After all, this drip, drip, drip, of STCC rhetoric is worse than any Erie Canal Water Torture that anyone should have to endure. And it's so painful watching the "blind lead the blind"...




Michael Caswell

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Fudged the truth again!
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2021, 04:43:38 am »
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.townofpittsford.org%2Ffiles%2Fpublications%2Fcanal-tree-cutting-EIS-guidebk-comments-lttr-pittsford-town.pdf

By Pittsford Town Attorney Robert B Koegel

I bring your attention to page 10, last but one paragraph, where he states.
Dr. Donald H Gray, a highly credentialed slope stability expert who contributed an affidavit in the prior litigation against NYSCC referred to above, has complied a literature review of the effect of woody vegetation removal on the hydrology and stability of slopes.
He then refers to this document by Donald H Gray.
www.greenbeltconsulting.com/assets/pdfs/VegLitReview.pdf
In the second paragraph it states -
Widespread removal (clear-cutting) of trees on natural slopes and stream banks generally leads to an increase in slope failures. This is the overwhelming consensus of papers published in the scientific and technical literature as documented in the attached literature review.

'Clear cutting on NATURAL SLOPES and STREAM BANKS', and none of these are anything like an earthen embankment dam. Why? They have no hydrostatic pressure causing a phreatic line.

see https://eriecanalfacts.wordpress.com/2018/04/19/testimony-in-question-vegetation-on-dams/
to read what Dr. Gray wrote to us when we questioned him about his testimony.

In summary he said, "I don’t know of any earth dams where woody vegetation was purposely planted or allowed to grow on a face of the dam."

As usual, folks working with the STCC get confused easily regarding the difference between a dam and a levee. We've tried to tell them, dozens of times, but they simply don't want to hear it.
Their own EXPERT WITNESS denounced having trees on an earthen embankment dam.

And you'll note throughout this document, the Pittsford Town lawyer had highlighted many phrases, but in almost every case they refer to either a wooded slope (as in a forest) or a stream bank or (their favorite ) a levee.

Shame on them for perpetuating these lies.  Case closed.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 04:55:58 am by Michael Caswell »

Michael Caswell

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It's called Deflection!
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2021, 03:28:33 am »

Yes, we've seen a lot of that just lately,(more accurately, over the past four years) from the STCC and supporters.

Ms Agte's latest rant on their Facebook page (sept 18th) is typical. She says, "---they (NYPA) have enlisted lots of dam engineers and their reports"

Isn't that what you've been asking for Lizzy?"  Now you have them and you're still bitchin'? I guess dam engineers don't agree with your philosophy?

Oh!  So let's conveniently change the subject and deflect to--

"but do we see any articles about wildlife, that so many of you have reported enjoying, or climate change, or exchanging trees for turf grass that must be mowed and that affect on our climate crisis, or is there an assessment of economic loss to canal communities if beauty is removed? Have they explored with wildlife experts what happens to fish in warmer water? No. ( I could keep listing)"   

Oh! PLEASE Lizzy - no more!  I think you just like whining because you're losing the battle.

Where have you EVER said anything about the folks that live below the canal level, like Bushnell's Basin and Crystal Springs?    No concern for their safety eh? Rather not talk about that, eh?  Let 'deflect to squirrels and a new one in the mix, fish!

I really chuckled about this part, "--- or is there an assessment of economic loss to canal communities if beauty is removed?

Beauty?  150' Cottonwoods, )covered in Bittersweet & Poison Ivy vines), dropping branches over the towpath? Honeysuckle, Garlic Mustard, Swallow-wort, and a host of other NYDEC registered illegal weeds.

The real beauty will be when this crap is removed from the embankment and we can see across the Irondequoit valley.

It used to be a feature that visitors were in awe of a hundred years ago. The sunsets will be amazing, and there will be a HUGE increase in visitors come to marvel at being 80 feet above the valley on the Belle. "Loopers' will do the loop again just to see the new, clear, view of Perinton valley. And trade will increase for all the businesses along this stretch of the canal.

And there you are, living comfortably a hundred feet above the canal, high and dry, with your eyes shut to the potential for business, and the potential for loss of life if this dam fails.

Nowhere else in the World are dams allowed to get into the deplorable condition our stretch of dam is in, but thanks to a bunch of misguided STCC members following the Agte lie, all of Perinton is in danger right now.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 11:14:29 am by Doug K »

Doug K

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Wow, fish are now the "victims" of Canal Embankment Safety? Somehow removal of trees is going to warm the Erie Canal so that fish are affected? Wouldn't that have happened already to areas that were cleared back in 2018? Or sections that run East to West now? After all, the main Canal channel is not covered by trees at all.

I've never heard something this far-fetched to date from this Facebook group, must be desperate times for desperate people.

It's all a big distraction folks, climate change, loss of oxygen, wildlife crying about lost habitats, and now fish boiling in Canal water.

You would think just once, the leaders of this group would look in the mirror and say these things to themselves, before posting a public page, looking completely ridiculous. But that's not in their "nature", they'd rather try to prey on the weak minded, who might swallow this crap.. hook, line & sinker. Sad in a way, but utter folly on their part.

There will be no "beauty" lost when Canal Embankments in Fairport & Perinton are finally cleared of invasive vegetation.

What will be lost is 10+ miles of unsafe earthen Embankment dams, along with the fear from those living below those dams that they might wake up one night to water pushing their house down their street.

And another thing that will be "lost & forgotten" one day... a group on Facebook who thought it was a good idea to say "No thank you" to public safety around earthen dams.


And that day can't come soon enough if you ask Canal Neighbors