Author Topic: Scientific References - You MUST be joking!!! (Read 196 times)

Michael Caswell · « **on:** December 01, 2020, 02:16:38 pm »

Just gleaned from the STCC web page. see below. I guess it doesn't matter how many experts tell them there is a problem, they are deaf to their advice.

Most amusing are Virginia Borden Maier's comments. "They have yet to make a strong clear case that trees were and are a true risk"

I guess these bored housewives are more qualified to comment on dam safety that all the Dam Safety Engineers who have ALL said our canal embankments are Class C High Hazard.

You do know you're going to have to bring along chain cutters when the project starts, they'll be chaining themselves to Cottonwoods. Hopefully, they'll all be arrested.

Unbelievable!

Mike Caswell
ECNA

Scientific References - You MUST be joking!!!

Doug K · « **Reply #1 on:** December 03, 2020, 11:11:47 am »

Mike, I know one possible answer... it's called an Unwavering Devotion to the Wrong Message

It appears that Ms. Agte, Ms. Maier and Ms. Gouldthorpe haven't changed the message they keep telling themselves, and their followers, about Erie Canal Embankment safety. It's been the same since their inception and you can file it under classic "Denialist".

Why does this Facebook Group keep insisting nothing is wrong with the Erie Canal when the OWNERS of the property have stated otherwise?

Are these three people doing it for the same reason that other's deny the "science, truth & facts" around a given subject like public safety or dam maintenance?

Some of these types of people believe if they tell a lie long enough it will magically become the truth somehow... we see plenty of that going on these days.

Some of these people believe their "valued opinion" should mean more than scientific fact or and all known best practices by those intimate with said topic.

And a very few people, like the Leaders of this Facebook group, actually believe both.

But sadly they also don't understand why they have to keep repeating their same tired lies and opinions that don't add any value.

They can't seem to figure out that the TRUTH will always win over the lies that people like them makeup to deny those simple truths.

They also can't seem to figure out that Science & Engineering FACTS will always win over opinions of people like them, who aren't adding value to the overall solution.

So why do they keep saying that there is NO danger to the Public having trees covering all these raised embankment dams along the canal?

Its simple... It's because these three "Facebook Group Leaders" are still trying to silence those little voices in the back of their own heads that keeps telling them they are wrong, and that trees are a danger to all dams... Its all spelled out by Science & Engineers.

And that is not an opinion...it's Fact.

Michael Caswell · « **Reply #2 on:** December 06, 2020, 12:18:36 pm »

Of course, Ms Agte knows this too.

She says ----They were manufacturing a threat that is not there!

Just take a look at the work the NYPA did a couple of years ago, shortly after this fiasco started.

https://eriecanalfacts.wordpress.com/2018/04/14/340/

This work took over three weeks, and I hate to think of the cost.
No threat of flood eh?

RUBBISH Ms Agte PURE DRIVEL!

Doug K · « **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2020, 12:23:05 pm »

Not to mention that the internet has many many examples and stories citing past Erie Canal embankment ISSUES that this group insists didn't happen.

The STCC Leadership, Ms. Agte et all, only mention one canal breach, the 1974 at Bushnell's Basin, saying it was caused by "man" and at no other time has the canal ever had embankment issues.

To that I have a one word response: Bullshit!

And here's proof that these environmental-wannabee's are nothing more than Canal Safety Denialists, who simply deny what doesn't fit

https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Stretch-of-Erie-Canal-shut-down-after-partial-11547131.php

https://13wham.com/news/local/canal-corp-begins-emergency-repairs-in-ogden-perinton

https://orleanshub.com/tree-cutters-clear-canal-embankment-in-holley/

https://westsidenewsny.com/news/2012-08-05/canal-crews-respond-to-partial-failure-of-erie-canal-embankment/

https://www.wxxinews.org/post/emergency-work-continues-erie-canal-embankments

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2017/12/19/erie-canal-clear-cutting/963749001/

Doug K · « **Reply #4 on:** December 20, 2020, 12:32:54 pm »

This Stop the Canal Clear-cut Group (STCC) on Facebook is playing Russian Roulette with Canal Embankments & Public Safety, and everyone living along or near the Erie Canal is in danger of potential catastrophic flooding as a result...

And most Rochester residents don't seem to care at all.

All of this plays out while Perinton, Pittsford and Fairport Government Leaders let this small dysfunctional group dictate the course of public safety in an around our Erie Canal villages & communities. They do it by NOT speaking up to them and their dangerous rhetoric of public safety program denial.

Those community leaders should know better, those town & village residents and taxpayers deserve better representation.

So the real answer to Mike Caswell's question is simple...

This group will NOT go away until the PUBLIC says they have heard enough of their lies.

As long as the Stop The Canal Clear-cut group continues to follow the Denialist Playbook, and the Public lets them continue their charade, nothing will change. It appears that only canal neighbors living BELOW these unsafe dams seem interested.

It's not like there isn't a mountain of evidence against what this Facebook Group is saying... because the topic of Earthen Dam Safety is well covered on the internet.

In Fact just about EVERY STATE has a page dedicated to Embankment & Earthen Dam Safety

New York - https://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/67062.html

Nebraska - https://dnr.nebraska.gov/dam-safety/trees

Virginia - https://www.dcr.virginia.gov/dam-safety-and-floodplains/dsveget

Michigan - https://berriencounty.org/612/Dam-Safety

Wisconsin - https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/Dams/documents/FSInternalErosion.pdf

There are even manuals written on how to maintain Canals & Embankments correctly. These publications are put out by many different organizations, including Land Management for the US Dept of Interior and FEMA, who with the US army Corps of Engineers manages hundreds of water impounding structures.

These are the REAL experts on Dam Safety & Maintenance, unlike what the STCC has stated.

https://www.usbr.gov/assetmanagement/docs/Canal_Vegetation.pdf

https://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/20130726-1502-20490-1952/fema_l263.pdf

https://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/20130726-1446-20490-2338/fema-534.pdf

Sadly, none of this information matters because this Stop the Canal Clear-cut Group refuses to acknowledge that they may be wrong, and the general public doesn't care enough about their own safety to stop foolish people from toying with it.

In fact most members of the STCC seem to talk more about what they DON'T KNOW than what they do on on their Facebook site.

And all the information they need can easily be found using the websites created by the NYS Canal Corporation to explain the practice & process of keeping Earthen Embankment Dams safe & sustainable. Of course they wouldn't go look there, that's what the "enemy" is saying.. right?

http://www.canals.ny.gov/Earthen_Embankment/index.html

http://www.canals.ny.gov/vegetation/index.html

Can anyone else see who the REAL enemy of Public Safety is in the Rochester area?

It appears not... except for the ECNA, who's been steadfast in their support of Safety along the Erie Canal

Michael Caswell · « **Reply #5 on:** March 13, 2021, 04:58:43 am »

I almost fell off my chair when I read this! (Actually, this was a re-read, but I'd forgotten how stupid the article was.)

I guess the philosophy at the STCC is, if you keep telling the same lie, folks will eventually believe it. FAKE NEWS? Methinks so!

https://sites.google.com/view/eriecanalclearcutting/scientific-references?authuser=0

Which states ----

"Research and international practice indicates NO consensus that levees and embankments must be tree-free to ensure safety. There is little empirical evidence that woody vegetation poses any risk to embankment stability; it is clear that trees themselves do NOT pose a major risk. In fact, there are good reasons to believe that the trees on the canal embankments are in fact stabilizing these embankments."

Firstly, the STCC has never recognized that there is a huge difference between a LEVEE and an EARTHEN EMBANKMENT DAM. They seem to avoid the fact that levees are flood deterrents, while earthen dams are water impounding structures with much different rules.

Secondly, and MOST importantly, the published article the STCC references, is ONLY talking about trees on levees. The LEADERS of this Facebook group have taken the "liberty" of adding the word "embankments" to try and steer the conversation the way that best fits their narrative. That is NOT what those who published this article said.

Read the article, is a discussion about levee construction, for irrigation purposes, not earthen embankment dams for retaining water, or building a canal waterway..

In this article, you'll see the 'expert witness' Dr Donald Grey, (a gentleman specifically called to testimony by the STCC) stating the difference between a levee and an embankment dam.

https://eriecanalfacts.wordpress.com/2018/04/19/testimony-in-question-vegetation-on-dams/

The article further expounds their theories -

Key conclusion from the literature review:

"The effects of widespread vegetation removal on the stability of natural slopes have been studied extensively as a result of a timber harvesting practice of widespread removal of trees known as clear-cutting.

Clear-cutting on natural slopes and streambanks generally leads to an increase in slope failures (Gray and Megahan 1989; O’Loughlin 1974; Pollen-Bankhead et al. 2009; Sidle et al. 1985; Wu and Swanston 1980; Ziemer 1978). ...

Both benefits and risks of converting wooded levees to grass-covered levees, including the engineering feasibility and economic costs of such conversion, have yet to be fully investigated."

Notice - there is Dr Gray - yes the same man who stated to the ECNA:

"I don’t know of any earth dams where woody vegetation was purposely planted or allowed to grow on a face of the dam. Such is not the case with earthen levees where vegetation can often be found growing on both the landward and water sides.

An earthen dam is designed and built to prevent overtopping and minimize through-flow (seepage).

Overtopping of an earth dam is prevented by building the dam high enough.

By comparison earthen levees have been built mainly to withstand breaching that can occur during river flood conditions, through-flow and lateral scour. The presence of vegetation on a levee helps prevent erosion that can occur during overtopping and lateral scour", while the levee is being used during flood conditions.

A LEVEE IS NOT WHAT ERIE CANAL EMBANKMENTS ARE, - THESE BERMS ARE ALL EARTHEN DAMS.

Levees do not have a phreatic line, and are NOT under pressure from the impounded or contained water, except in a time of flooding.

Many people have brought this FACT to the attention of the STCC on numerous occasions, yet they STILL ignore the difference between a levee and a dam.

Notice the STCC article carefully avoids the word DAM, because they know darned well, all the rules about phreatic lines and the avoidance of trees on a dam come into play.

But what else is expected from a group that uses distraction, deception & disinformation as "weapons" in their battle against NYPA, the Canal Corporation and public safety along the Erie Canal?

Doug K · « **Reply #6 on:** March 13, 2021, 10:59:36 am »

Good points made by Mr. Caswell, once again, but perhaps the most significant statement anyone could make about Erie Canal Safety & the Stop the Canal Clear-Cut group on Facebook is this one:

But what else is expected from a group that uses distraction, deception & disinformation as "weapons" in their battle against NYPA, the Canal Corporation and public safety along the Erie Canal?

I can only add this:

Of course you can try to convince yourself that you will get the same level of information on Earthen Embankment Dam Safety from a group on Facebook, who is trying to save "shade", and prevent the NYS Canal Corporation from actually fixing their "non-compliant" dams in the State of New York.

I'm sure the leadership of this Stop the Canal Clear-Cut group has credentials that shows their expertise in Dam Safety, and that they have read and understood all of the Dam Safety rules & regulations of New York, and those published by other agencies tasked with providing SAFE dams in this country.

https://ecna.createaforum.com/the-stop-the-clearcut-argument/why-grass-is-good!/?message=1430

Michael Caswell · « **Reply #7 on:** May 14, 2021, 11:44:39 am »

The question has been asked -"Why isn’t NYPA focused on this critical repair versus clear cutting now?"

The answer is simple. A few temporary rocks in a non critical area, are FAR less important than a dangerous High risk Earthen Dam that was thoroughly neglected by the previous owners.

And, 'clear cutting' is an expression the STCC stole and it refers to harvesting plantation trees. Not relevant here, as this is a completely different problem involving invasive vegetation.

Doug K · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2021, 04:04:47 pm »

BTW: What Ms Donk did not mention is that the crumbling wall is on the South side of the Canal, it's level ground and not an embankment, and the spalling cement isn't even a used docking area any longer.

But it is another part of a canal system that is falling apart at 100 years old. Just like the first Erie Canal did.

And a bit of history,

When the original canal was falling apart and the good folks of New York wanted to replace it with something bigger and better, there was an effort to make the new one more robust to breakage and burrows that caused many issue when mules used the Towpath.

And there was also an active group of people, who were also protesting against the "changes" being suggested to the new Barge canal version back in the 1920s. It's the canal we have today, and mules had been retired by the time it opened in 1926.

And now, almost 100 years later, that 1926 built canal is slowly falling apart, doesn't serve the purpose it used to, and is now in the middle of an "identity crisis".

It needs to be repaired and made "like new" again, to keep it safe...AGAIN.

And once again, people are trying to take a stand against the work needed to insure America's First Highway meets the needs for yet another century of use.

Nothing's changed... People still rally to the wrong cause

News:

Author Topic: Scientific References - You MUST be joking!!! (Read 196 times)

Michael Caswell

Scientific References - You MUST be joking!!!

Doug K

The Stop The Canal Clear-cut Leader's Unwavering Devotion to the Wrong Message

Michael Caswell

Re: When will these bored housewives shut up, finally!

Doug K

Re: When will these bored housewives shut up, finally!

Doug K

Erie Canal Communities should stand up for Public Safety and denounce this Facebook Group

Michael Caswell

Scientific References - You MUST be joking!!!

Doug K

Re: Scientific References - You MUST be joking!!!

Michael Caswell

NYPA focus? STCC not so much.

Doug K

Re: NYPA focus? STCC not so much.